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brash
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Some people say 'use them', some people say 'don't'
I tend not to because the file size is smaller and because my PSP browser requires a thousand confirmation clicks if I sort through a folder with mip maps -- but what am I missing out on by not using them?
One person claimed they helped performance, but I think I was also told in hardware to turn mipmaps OFF on my graphics card for better performance?
oh oh oh, I am soooo confused!
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Blame my Poopsie Darling, Pseron Wyrd. It's very hard to work the editor floating 10 feet off the ground.
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JeffB
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For your videocard, its generally better to turn MipMaps ON - it WILL slow down performance, but probably not by much (depends on machine). If you turn MipMaps OFF, sometimes graphics look a little strange - for example I have a Space Sim whereby if MipMaps are OFF, all light sources look like crude square blocks, instead of the fuzzy spheroids as they should look like.
BTW I have an AMD Athlon 1.33 Ghz machine. MipMaps ON for my videocard (GeForce 3) doesn't seem to have any real negative impact - the drop in performance SEEMS theoretical.
MipMaps in Morrowind Graphics - I assume you mean using .DDS textures (and I've seen some mods that use .DDS *icons* - what? What is THAT about?)
Personally I don't like them and I wish people would stop using them. BMP/TGA files are easier to modify. I have the plugin, I am using it in Paint Shop Pro 5.3, but I haven't taken teh time to learn to use it.
DDS files give a performance increase by providing a SERIES of textures based on distance from the player. Texture = far away from the player = smaller map = faster processing. As the player gets closer to the textured object, larger images with greater detail and resolution are painted on the object.
Also DDS files are apparantly smaller then BMP/TGA, therefore the MOD with textures is going to a smaller archive.
I still wish people would stop using them. I HAVE checked, I perceive NO increase in esthetics with DDS over BMP/TGA, I see NO increase in performance - and my machine is 2001-era, so I think I WOULD see a performance increase if there was one.
Makes it harder to reskin things.
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Albedo
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*edited*
this is what nvidia says about mipmaps
I've heard that it's a crime to not use mipmaps. Why is this?
Whether you're using mipmapping or not, you should never use "nearest" filtering, which causes texture swimming artifacts when textures are minified. Using mipmaps allows you to create accurately minified versions of your textures, so that they look as good as possible in the distance. Mipmapped textures only require 33% more memory than their non-mipmapped counterparts, so it is wise to trade off the small amount of extra memory for the vastly improved image quality. In addition, today's GPUs are optimized to handle mipmaps very efficiently, so the performance impact of using mipmaps is minimal.
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Landscape Remix and other projects of mine
Edited by Albedo (09/12/03 11:17 PM)
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brash
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JeffB -- actually it is not DDS per se -- DDS allows the *option* of using mipmaps or not. I am using DDS either way as it is a hugely significant filesize issue on a mod with a LOT of graphics (perhaps less an issue on mods with less graphics.) For instance, just as a check, I made copies of one of my graphics in DDS, TGA and BMP. The DDS was 129K with no mipmaps, 342K with mipmaps, the TGS was 706K, the BMP 769K. Since I happen to be using literally *thousands* of graphics in a graphics-intensive mod, that becomes an enormously significant amount. DDS are already compressed so in ZIPS the difference narrows, but still 3X the space for DDS vs the others. Since I already will have a 300MB+ mod using DDS, the negative impact of using much larger graphics is very important to me.
Just as an aside, if you aren't using PaintShopPro or Photoshop (which handle DDS), the freeware program Irfanview is a super easy graphics tool that has many functions including batch-converting DDS files. It is also just great for optimizing webpage graphics to load lickety-split fast.
I use DDS in both PSP5 & PSP8, and frankly its a snap in PSP5, there really isn't anything to learn at all. I get VERY confused learning new functions myself, and usually avoid anything that has a learning curve. The plugin just gives another option of file type to save in. No different than choosing between GIF & JPG in web graphics.
Anyway, IrafanView's new inclusion of DDS means any DDS image is easily edited by modders regardless of their primary graphics editor.
Albedo -- Hmm, I would think requiring 33% more resources to be a very significant number, especially if some users experience performance issues with a "plain vanilla" Morrowind as is.
But it sounds like, mipmaps won't affect closeup visuals just visuals at a distance? I was hoping it involved the reverse ...
I guess I need to test both ways, though that sounds like a lot of work to set up such a test. Unless, hmm, would testing using Bethesda's TGA (2nd CD) image set, vs their DDS (BSA) set of images, be a fair test of what mipmapping actually does? It would be easy enough to copy two separate testures folders then swap themn about for a test.
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On Semi Sabbatical from projects for a while.
Blame my Poopsie Darling, Pseron Wyrd. It's very hard to work the editor floating 10 feet off the ground.
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intelligenz
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Always use mipmaps, always use .dds, nuff said. Even if mipmaps are disabled on the card they should be enabled in the texture, especially due to the lack of size.
As to all you .dds haters, quit whining and buy Photoshop (yes, I have a legal copy :P)
And if you still can't get the plugin to work, it's not hard, really. you just have to install those funny dll files that it's says to install on the nVidia website 
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Ventyr
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Well I remember a while back someone, I think Fidel, figured out if you made the mipmaps different, you could have someone from far away, transition into something else, like from far away they look like a normal human and then suddenly as they got closer they sort of morph into a zombie face. Other than that, I have not found much use for mipmaps or noticed a difference with or without them, but I use them anyway just in case because it seems to be standard. Rhedd and Allie always use them and those two have done some stuff professionally for other games so I assume they know what they are doing when using it.  On the other hand, for someone who is making a large mod and is very concious of file size it may be better not to have them.
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brash
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Intel -- 'fraid "Nuff Said" has never been good enough logic for me -- too many people follow patterns without knowing why, just because someone said "just do it because that's what I was told to do." I would like to know why and the function, and the pros and cons.
Well, unless chocolate or chocobos are involved -- then 'Nuff Said is always a good enough reason.
Anyway, for me there IS a known 'con' to using mipmaps (besides a substantial 2X size issue, PSP5 requires Y/N confirmation on whether to load a mipmap for every individual graphic, and when I browse a folder with 3000+ thumbnails, or load up 80 graphics to edit, that is a HUGE issue personally), and I need to find out whether the pros outweigh that con.
Also, I consider "quit whining and buy Photoshop" am even worse response than 'Nuff Said especially since there is freeware available that makes DDS an option for anyone.
But other than that -- we agree on chocobos  and maybe the chocolate.
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On Semi Sabbatical from projects for a while.
Blame my Poopsie Darling, Pseron Wyrd. It's very hard to work the editor floating 10 feet off the ground.
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Oh and I forgot to mention, there is a way around annoying prompts asking if you want to show mipmaps for every image. Save a dds, any dds, it doesn't matter as long as you bring up the Nvidia menu. In the lower right hand corner uncheck "prompt for mipmaps" then save the dds. You will never be bothered again with the mipmap prompt.
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Freddo
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MIP (Multim Im Parvo) mapping is a texturing technique used to improve the visual quality of computer generated graphics. When a 3D object gets too small, the computer screen is no longer able to display all its details. When this happens, some details are skipped, and visual information is lost. This results in jagged edges. MIP mapping is used to adress this problem.
However, this was during the "early 3D graphic card era". The cards of today can use Bilinear or Trilinear filtering to fight the jaggies instead. And anisotropic filtering does an even better job. And together with FSAA, MIP maps becomes pretty much obsolete. Today it can be very hard to notice the visual (or speed) difference between using MIP maps and not using them.
I started to replay Jedi Knight from 1997 just a few days ago which is, to my knowledge, the first game that featured MIP maps and I want to turn them off. I don't want the game to use a small 16x16 texture (or whatever the size is) on the objects that's far away. It simply doesn't look good. It would look better if the "big" texture was used together with 4x anisotropic filtering for sure.
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Hall of Torque  Remember the fishysticks! Archies pack rat! 
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intelligenz
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Meh, dds, mipmaps, Photoshop, DirectX 9 graphics cards, broadband, DDR RAM, overclocked FSB, nuff said
Now if I could enable DX9 pixel shaders in WI, then I could *really* make everyone's PC cry.
But seriously mipmaps = less texture screwedupness at distance, dds = small = no brainer IMHO....
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Ah, that *is* true. Personally I do find Morrowind a little overzealous with the mipmaps - it seems to jump to the second mipmap at a distance of about 3 feet, which isn't good. For the most part you won't see anything, I only found out when I tested with different images on each mipmap....
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Oh and chocolate == nuff siad. Especially dark chocolate. But not Nestle, because they're evil 3rd world raping capitalist scumbags. And Cadbury's is blatantly better anyway. But not as good as Belgian chocolate. Or even better, Swiss. Mmmmm. I want a chocolate Chocobo for Easter.
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BlackSirius
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brash, thanks a lot for asking (some questions always fall through my personal gutter called memory) and BTW, did the links work for you?
everybody else who posted in this thread, thanks a lot for answering and therefore providing me with a) more knowledge and b) less worries (that's what I call a deal )
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Black Sirius
Now I have here the answer to those who said I couldn't learn
Something science has taught me, now this place is going to burn.
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brash
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Quote:
Oh and I forgot to mention, there is a way around annoying prompts asking if you want to show mipmaps for every image. Save a dds, any dds, it doesn't matter as long as you bring up the Nvidia menu. In the lower right hand corner uncheck "prompt for mipmaps" then save the dds. You will never be bothered again with the mipmap prompt.
That's true for my PSP8, but I often use PSP5 because it handles DDS alphas much better, and it doesn't have that option, so I still get the prompt every time I scan the folder thumbnails (which i do a LOT).
Well, so far I have BETTER info -- which was my goal -- but not yet enough to either persuade or convince, especially in light of Freddo's post. So, thus far mipmaps !> chocolate chocobos.
Black Sirius, eeks I spaced out and forgot to download them, which I am doing This Very Minute lest I forget again. (You should see how many coffee cups I lose around the house.)
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I can't remember who said it or what thread it was in, but the freeware program irfanview now supports photoshop plugins so you SHOULD be able to open dds files with that. I don't know exactly because I own photoshop 
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Raptre Thanlis
Raptre Innovations
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My 2 septims: Use smaller formats whenever possible. I am running out of hard drive space, so when a mod uses .bmp textures (or .tga) I am reluctant to download it because of time and storage constraints. (I am also running a dialup connection).
.dds is much better... it's smaller and faster downloaded.
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Well, since this is somewhat on topic, can someone direct me to a tutorial or instruction guide for saving a file as .dds? My mods, though not graphic heavy on the object end, do tend to add a lot of icons. In a moment of community spirit, I converted a bunch of my custom icons to .dds. However, when I re-opened them in photoshop, I found that not only was the size decreased by 25%, but the quality of the image was decreased by (at least) 25%.
I used all of the "standard" settings, so I'm hoping that it is possible to tweak the save for better output. Otherwise, my icons will stay as .tgas. I'm not willing to lose quality to make a 4k file into a 3k file.
Any direction would be appreciated, I looked around the forum, but haven't found the right place to look yet. 
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OK, there are a number of different options when saving a .dds file. The nVidia PS plug-in is updated often, I'm describing 5.5.8 in PS 7.0.1, but yours may look different.
Some .dds formats offer lossy (.jpg-like) compression, smaller file size but the image losses quality. On some images it's more noticeable than others. In the upper left you'll get a drop-down list of compression types. DTX1 is 8:1 compression, DTX3 & 5 are 4:1. Further there are different ways of saving the alpha channel for these options. "No Alpha" discards it entirely, "1 bit Alpha" saves only black and white pixels. Your edges will be jaggy. "Interpolated Alpha" vs "Explicit Alpha" are full gray-scale, but use different methods of compression.
Some options offer compression by limiting the number of colors, more like a .gif, but with lots more colors. The numbers you see; 4:4:4:4 - 1:5:5:5 - 8:8:8:8 etc refer to the number of bits used for each channel. They are listed by ARGB, Alpha, Red, Green, Blue. 8:8:8:8 is full 32 bit color, 8 bits per channel. You'll lose no quality, but it will be the largest file size. (as big as a .tga) 1:5:5:5 uses 1 bit for the alpha (black or white only) and 5 for each color channel. You lose some of your tonal range, but fewer bits == smaller files.
That means that -every- option but "8:8:8:8 ARGB (32 bit)" loses some of your image quality. Like saving a .jpg -always- save your original Photoshop (or whatever) file. Make changes there and resave a fresh .dds. Don't open and resave .dds files continually.
There is a cool 3D preview built into the .dds PS plug-in. Tick off the formats you want to see and you get a real-time DirectX 3D render of your texture applied to a surface. It also shows you potential files sizes, so you can make your file-size to quality decisions.
Always preview, I've had some images that look perfect with the 8:1 DTX1 compression. And some that just don't look right unless they are 8:8:8:8.
So, that's the first option box. Want to know about the rest?
(sorry to thread-jack there Brash)
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brash
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Threadjack away a lot went over my head other than the implied suggestion to set PREVIEW on, then romp around and experiment ...
raptre, there is not enough savings in icons to make DDS a big issue there; on the other hand, I rarely consider inventory icon 'quality' to be a high priority for me personally. I make DDS icons from habit but there is hardly much argument against using TGA for icons since the filesize savings aren'r worth the time/effort of converting to DDS.
You *do* need to be more careful on alpha settings for icons; if I recall, I had SuperUglified icons using 1-bit alpha but they looked just swell using explicit alpha. Again, maybe not worth the time of fooling with if they are currently TGA.
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Yeah, just hit the 3D preview button. It's towards the upper right of the save plug-in. You'll see a preview of all the quality options, with file sizes listed. Just pick the best looking/smallest file size one. You'll even see alpha transparency previewed.
1-bit alpha will definitely give you jaggey edges. You only get two colors; black or white, no shades of gray.
And no reason whatsoever to save mipmaps for .dds files used as icons. Just in case you were wondering.
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My Very Unscientific Method (which might be Very Flawed as well) is:
1) If the image has no alpha, I pick No Alpha (DXT1)
2) If the image uses alpha but with a Monochrome backdrop (is, all black or grey etc) for the alpha area, I pick 1-bit alpha (DXT1)
3) If the image uses a very complex/shaded alpha and all the areas are multicolored, I use Explicit Alpha (DXT3)
4) For icons I *always*always* use explicit alpha or they look really funky
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Can someone give me a quickie in MIPMAPS?
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